Forumi Horizont (http://www.forumihorizont.com/index.php3)
- *He said, she said* (http://www.forumihorizont.com/forumdisplay.php3?forumid=325)
-- Thoughts (http://www.forumihorizont.com/showthread.php3?threadid=2715)
Postuar nga raid datë 16 Prill 2012 - 20:28:
One thing is for sure, you'll find fucking haters trolling every thread...
Postuar nga lorie datë 16 Prill 2012 - 23:04:
What do you care?
You got no standards remember? 
One thing truly surprises me, when somebody says 'I am an atheist. I don't beleive in God.' and yet expect others to act in a righteous way.
Truth is, there is no such thing as atheism,because sooner or later one will cry out 'Justice!!' and realize he/she is calling on a standard outside him/herself. This is one of the STRONGEST EVIDENCES that there is a God, because our own consciousness betrays us, wether we like it or not, absolute moral truths exist.
If one does not believe in absolute moral truths, no one should complain that mass murdering, rape, genocide, corruption, and war are wrong.
Postuar nga Fajtori datë 17 Prill 2012 - 00:10:
Justice is not a concept of God. Otherwise there would always be justice in the world.
Also, justice is relative to the conditions where you live in. Genocide and war are normal behaviors for people living in certain conditions.
Finally, if there is absolute morality the human race would be extinct. We survive because we adapt to the conditions where we live, just like any other animal. Believing in God is just a fancy alternative to accepting our ignorance. Rather then accepting we don't know much about the world, some people rather say somebody else knows, and he designed this world in a clever way, except for murder, genocide and war, which are caused by humans... 
Postuar nga raid datë 17 Prill 2012 - 00:41:
When a man kills another man, I guess you call this injustice, because God told you "thou shall not kill". Right? - lorie?
What about when a tsunami (i.e. the Omnipotent) kills 150,000 people is it just or unjust?
Or maybe is this a different kind of kill, because who are we to judge God? How many standards are we talking here?
kinda busy now, later..
Postuar nga raid datë 17 Prill 2012 - 01:37:
Human species, have been around for 150 thousand years or so.
For almost all of these years, humans have killed each other, died in misery at the age of 25 on average. Droughts, floods destroyed their homes, killed their children. Disease decimated entire populations. The list goes on.
What does God do? Nothing 
. Just sat back and relaxed. Maybe he was getting a kick out of all this, maybe enjoying the show. Die mutherfuckers die he probably muttered.
Somehow only 2000 years ago, he decides to do something. He says... people enough if enough now. Don't kill, don't steal.. lol. Oh and by the way, worship me and love me endlessly, 'cuz if you dare to forget you ain't seen nothing yet, I have a special place for you after you die.
If this is not insane lorie, I don't know what is?
Postuar nga lorie datë 17 Prill 2012 - 18:25:
Citim:
Po citoj ato që tha Fajtori
Justice is not a concept of God. Otherwise there would always be justice in the world.
Also, justice is relative to the conditions where you live in. Genocide and war are normal behaviors for people living in certain conditions.
Finally, if there is absolute morality the human race would be extinct. We survive because we adapt to the conditions where we live, just like any other animal. Believing in God is just a fancy alternative to accepting our ignorance. Rather then accepting we don't know much about the world, some people rather say somebody else knows, and he designed this world in a clever way, except for murder, genocide and war, which are caused by humans...
1-Justice is a concept of God. By the second statement I am seeing that you agree that there is no always justice in the world. However, how did you come up with such conclusion? You have to have a previous standard of justice to compare what is happening in the world right now. The absence of justice leads one to beleive that the world is unjust, however, we need a first concept 'justice' to be able to compare the two. Even the absence of justice and our unhappiness toward it, verifies/confirms that there is such thing as justice outside ourselves.
You confuse justice with free choice. I am also always surprised when people complain that 'God does not let people live freely but there's always rules to go by..' and on the other hand they say that ' why is there so much pain in the world?'
Well now, one has to make up his mind. If you want people with free choice painful things to others will always happen. Free choice allows people to do whatever they want to do. In other words don't complain about pain when you also are asking about free choice.
Personally I think free choice is a great gift from God, and I am glad people get to have it ( even if this includes massive amounts of pain people inflict to each-other based on their choices) but again, based on my experience, it's also free choice that leads somebody to God and that is exactly what he looks for, people who would come freely to him, not under dictation, not in a dictatorship.
2-Genocide and war may be normal in certain conditions based on the culture, however, it does not mean it is right ( and it also varies to contexts and odd-one-out situations,specific accounts that need to be analyzed and understood.)
3-Finally, adaptation helps with survival skills and we all need to have them. The idea of morality is adapting in a NOBLE way so to speak.
If not, it is when we behaved in animalistic terms that we would be extinct. Purely animalistic behavior would mean that we could act like spiders eating our mate, or some other animal eating the flesh of our babies which we could do all that (under certain conditions again). The idea of people being more than animals comes with the idea of people having a spirit,of rising above the animal world. And that is what God is trying to convey all along.
Postuar nga lorie datë 17 Prill 2012 - 18:31:
Citim:
Po citoj ato që tha raid
When a man kills another man, I guess you call this injustice, because God told you "thou shall not kill". Right? - lorie?
What about when a tsunami (i.e. the Omnipotent) kills 150,000 people is it just or unjust?
Or maybe is this a different kind of kill, because who are we to judge God? How many standards are we talking here?
kinda busy now, later..
I think what you have in mind here is the laws of nature. You cannot expect God to stop gravity from working so you can be alive when you jump off a tall building just because on the way down ,you changed your mind and did not want to commit self-suicide.
Do you get what I am saying? Tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, meteros and so forth are our world, the universe is a beautiful intricate place, however a very dangerous place indeed.
If we didn't have tsunamis, the water wouldn't be stirred for new life to create, i mean ,i don't know everything in detail, i am no biologist but i am sure there could be an explanantion why we NEED tsunamis.
Postuar nga lorie datë 17 Prill 2012 - 18:49:
Citim:
Po citoj ato që tha raid
Human species, have been around for 150 thousand years or so.
For almost all of these years, humans have killed each other, died in misery at the age of 25 on average. Droughts, floods destroyed their homes, killed their children. Disease decimated entire populations. The list goes on.
What does God do? Nothing . Just sat back and relaxed. Maybe he was getting a kick out of all this, maybe enjoying the show. Die mutherfuckers die he probably muttered.
Somehow only 2000 years ago, he decides to do something. He says... people enough if enough now. Don't kill, don't steal.. lol. Oh and by the way, worship me and love me endlessly, 'cuz if you dare to forget you ain't seen nothing yet, I have a special place for you after you die.
If this is not insane lorie, I don't know what is?
The saying goes : You can't be my friend unless you spend some time with me.
I think this is true for God. Personally I find God has been greatly misunderstood. People who read the Bible twist their meanings so they can live a standard they make ,deceiving themselves. On the other hand, people who don't beleive in God have all sorts of ideas about him. If you read ,you won't find one bit the interpretation of how God is in how you have described him to be.
I find that to know God, one needs to read the Bible with an objective eye w/o biases because it is FILLED ( i am not exaggerating) with historical facts that it would change the heart of the most stubborn-hearted sceptik. ( aka me 
)
-------------------
I also find, in my personal experience and also those of others, that it has a psychological effect of transcendence. Let me explain.
People view their relationship with God the same way they see their relationship with their fathers. ( don't ask me why-it has happened to me too)
In other words, the way how you relate to God is a learned way how you have related to your father. If your father was loving and you trusted him with his life when you grew up, you will find it easier to trust God as your father ( transcendence) . If, onthe other hand, one was raised up in a family that was controlling, you would think of God as a controlling dictator kind of god, hard to trust, playing tricks on you.
To my opinion it is important to know him w/o biases, preconceived notions and failed relationships that one brings as a baggage into the relationship with God. It is a RELATIONSHIP after all.
Postuar nga raid datë 17 Prill 2012 - 18:56:
Citim:
Po citoj ato që tha lorie
I think what you have in mind here is the laws of nature. You cannot expect God to stop gravity from working so you can be alive when you jump off a tall building just because on the way down ,you changed your mind and did not want to commit self-suicide.
Do you get what I am saying? Tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, meteros and so forth are our world, the universe is a beautiful intricate place, however a very dangerous place indeed.
If we didn't have tsunamis, the water wouldn't be stirred for new life to create, i mean ,i don't know everything in detail, i am no biologist but i am sure there could be an explanantion why we NEED tsunamis.
No I don't expect God to stop gravity, because someone decides to jump off a building.
I don't expect Got to turn a wall into cheese because someone decides to smash his head against the wall.
These are their choices not God's.
I expect God, the merciful, the all loving, the all knowing, not to kill 150,000 people (on his decision - see the difference?).
He who made all the worlds, the planets, everything and loves us so much, couldn't find a way how to stir up water on Earth, but to kill a lot of his most beloved??
This logic doesn't hold up water.. ya know..
Postuar nga Endri datë 17 Prill 2012 - 19:45:
Whether conscience exists out of body has not been dismissed even by a few scientist. I wouldnt be dismissive of any viewpoint. But interesting debate.